The reality is if you don’t know who you are making a piece of content for, and I say content very intentionally, because it isn’t just film or television, it is all content. If you do not know who the audience is for what you’re making, don’t make it.

– Amy Baer on the audience

What we did is looked at 30 years of movies and saw that there are certain creative thematic casting and financial guidelines, signposts, that if the movies adhered to that, they almost always succeeded. I would literally say to you, the rate of return on them from, from a success standpoint was about 80%

Amy on the audience for Landline Pictures

I think the more that women are in communication with each other, in community with each other, the more they understand that they’re all in it together. So that’s really what matters to me most. And one of the reasons why I wanted to take on the board president role is because I think building community for and with and amongst women is something that is desperately needed in this business.

– Amy on Women in Film

Kevin asks Amy what she is currently working on, and what she is excited about. Amy discusses two new projects at Landline Pictures including Back Nine, a new film starring Renée Zellweger.

I think that the opportunity for Landline is something that I’m really excited about because I think in the same way that Jason Blum sort of cornered all things horror with Blumhouse, I think being able to own a lane is a really exciting opportunity.

– Amy on Landline Pictures

Join Kevin and his guest Amy Baer as they discuss Amy’s impressive career in the entertainment industry, her advocacy for women in film, and the importance of knowing your audience. Check out the fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

So now you just hope that the audience is seeing the movie the way I have expected them to see it as I’m working on it. Because, as editors, we pretty much are the first audience. And so, we want them to experience it the way that we experience it when we first watch it.

– David Rosenbloom on audience test screenings

Some people feel that more editing is better editing; you know, the quicker the cut, the more work is being put into it. That’s not necessarily the case, right? It’s just as difficult to decide where not to cut as it is to decide where to cut and how you let a shot go on longer.

– David on editing

I think it was the way we ended that movie because he originally gets killed. Christian Bale dies at the end of the movie. And we discovered that that wasn’t really the journey the audience wanted to go on.

How audience research led to a major change in
Out of the Furnace

David talks about the moviemaking process and the important relationship between the film’s editor and the director. They discuss David’s experience in editing sports movies like the audience-favorite Rudy.

…it speaks to what a living, breathing thing a movie is. There is an alchemy. You talk about alchemy in your book. There are things that you can’t anticipate when you’re writing how they’re going to end up when it’s shot because you now have actors coming in and breathing life into these characters. And then when you go to the editing room, you’re putting images together, and we’re making subtle changes that nobody would ever know.

– David on the editing process

Together, David and Kevin explore what makes great editing and how it can elevate a film to new heights. David shares his personal experience of watching All That Jazz for the first time and the moment he realized that editing could inspire applause. He also discusses the distinction between good editing and the use of fancy techniques. The pair delve into the nuances and subtleties of editing and how it can impact the final product.

David and Kevin talk about the intricacies of editing and why David hates the word “pace” in audience feedback. Kevin talks about the film’s length being a director’s issue while the pace is more of an editor’s issue. Audience engagement is discussed as well as when a film is too fast, too slow, or just right.

Fast pace is usually a proxy for confusion, and slow pace is often a proxy for boredom. Lack of engagement. Lack of engagement.

– Kevin Goetz on pace and audience testing

Join Kevin and his guest David Rosenbloom as they discuss David’s prolific career, the nuances and subtleties of editing, and how editing can shape the audience experience. Check out the fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

if I hadn’t had that opportunity with Alan, I don’t know that I would be doing what I’m doing. I probably would’ve stayed line-producing. I would’ve grown up and just been a line producer. But I loved post so much from being able to see the whole process unfold.

– Kevin Goetz on working with Alan Pakula

I’ve never seen an audience react in such a way. There was one guy, I don’t know if you remember this, he got up on the aisle and just ran up and down the aisle.

– Monica on an early test screening of Borat

I think during the pandemic, it started to dawn on me the anti-Semitism that was starting to brew, and I thought, well, maybe I’ll just put something out about my family and that we’re a Jewish family. And look, we’re all pretty much the same. We all tell stories around a Thanksgiving table. We’re all connected in some way.

– Monica on making The Stories of Us

Kevin and Monica delve into the topic of diversity and inclusivity in the film industry, with a focus on Monica’s efforts to advocate for and mentor underrepresented groups. Monica shares her wisdom and advice for young and emerging filmmakers and highlights some of the projects she is currently working on that aim to empower and promote women within the industry. She speaks about the importance of representation and the role of mentorship in creating more opportunities for diverse voices in film.

My advice is just to find yourself a mentor. Look for people that are doing what you want to be doing, and try to find the people that are doing what you want to be doing in the industry. And then start talking to them and start trying to figure out how you’re going to maneuver your way. Because the one other thing is to have a little patience. And with time, it will happen.

Join Kevin and his guest Monica Levinson as they take us on a journey through her career, starting from her early days as a filmmaker to her current position as a prominent producer and leader in Hollywood. Monica shares her influences, creative process, and her unwavering desire to give back and support the next generation of filmmakers. Check out the fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

I started realizing the idea of having a really great title and having some actors in the movie that are recognizable, but that doesn’t really mean anything until they sit down and they watch the movie. And I was just blown away by that screening. It’s one of those highlights of my life, being in Marina and really realizing what a test screening or what an audience screening can do for a movie.

– George Tillman Jr. on audience test screenings

Often a director will fall in love with a particular actor, and they will just be so precious with the performance and overstate their welcome for shot after shot. And I’m like, you are not helping the performance. You’re actually hurting the performance. And De Niro was, as you were saying, so smart to know that, actually, the performance is serving the overall film.

– Kevin Goetz on De Niro

Tillman talks about raising money for his first film, going mainly to family and friends in Chicago, and taking that movie to Hollywood and selling it to Savoy Pictures for $1,000,000. Unfortunately, Savoy Pictures went out of business, and that first film was lost, but it helped Tillman make connections that helped Soul Food get the green light.

And I remember a lot of religious people would show up and knock on the door and say, hey, do you know the world is going to end in 1988 on Thursday? You know, it was like all these weird people coming by, but they were just coming to really eat my grandmother’s food. So, I just tapped in, and then I started writing the material. But over the course of the film of writing, you can find out what it’s really about. And it just felt like, wow, when you eat, family stays together. And it really just reminded me of a lot of movies that I saw just about family. And I just felt that’s something that, as a filmmaker, you tapped into what you know. And I think some of the films that I enjoyed the most were always when I was able to tap into something emotionally.

– George Tillman Jr. on writing Soul Food

Kevin asks George to talk about audience test screenings and if the audience response was responsible for big changes in any of his films. George goes into what it feels like to participate in a test screening and sit among the audience. He talks about how he made changes to a movie based on what he felt around him at the audience test screening. They then go into positive test screenings as a validation of the filmmaker’s instincts.

…we’re back to content is king, and we both agree that great content is king. If you’re going theatrical, that’s what is going to differentiate you. A piece of advice that a friend of mine called George Tillman Jr. gave me, and I’m going to throw back to you, is just listen to your heart.

– Kevin Goetz

Join Kevin and his guest, George Tillman Jr., as they discuss Tillman’s journey from his early beginnings as a filmmaker to his current status as a leading voice in Hollywood. The intimate conversation ranges from Tillman’s influences to his creative process and the challenges and triumphs he’s faced along the way. Check out the fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

…it was an out-of-body experience for sure. I mean, when it’s happening. It just seems like you’re in a dream. You’re sort of floating, you know? I remember it, but I actually have never gone back and watched it.

– William Goldenberg

…it’s the end of the movie, and Ben and I are looking at each other like, uh oh, is this going to work? It was like you could feel the nervousness from both of us. And then the lights came up, and we had a really loud round of applause and all the cards, they fully filled out cards, and all the cards were amazing. And we were like, okay. I think we just clicked.

– William Goldenberg

Join Kevin and his guest, Billy Goldenberg, one of the great film editors working today, as they discuss what it was like to win an Oscar, how the editing process has changed over time, working with directors, and how effective editing can affect audience test scores. Check out the fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

It’s not all about the numbers, it’s all also about what people are saying, the quality of the response, and how they’re embracing it. Like any brand or any good brand, you have to have sort of a love connection with it. And no better example of that is a movie that you have to fall in love with it, and if you’re not going to fall in love with it, you’re what we call a fence sitter and we have to figure out how to move you to the love category.

I’ve sat in theaters where people just laugh and if I can give somebody a couple hours of just real solid entertainment where you can just forget your day, I think that’s pretty valuable.

Kevin and Todd discuss how movies are greenlit in the studio system and the economics of marketing and PR when dealing with a theatrical release versus a release on a streaming service. The pair discuss why comedies, particularly romantic comedies, are easier to produce on a streaming service. What follows is an insider’s perspective on the economic advantage the streaming services have over the Hollywood studios.

Kevin asks Todd about his mentors, and who he looks up to in the industry. Todd talks about filmmakers who influenced him like Howard Hawks and Mel Brooks. He then talks about mentors who he worked with like Jeffrey Katzenberg, Jerry Bruckheimer, and Adam Sandler.

What you are so good at is saying what’s underneath the numbers. Like what is happening in your movie is this, they’re not understanding this, or they’re not connecting to this, or this ending isn’t connecting because you have a problem in the beginning of the movie. That is what’s been able for me to be so successful in my career, is being able to sit with you and listen and talk, get into the weeds, not just about the numbers.

Join Kevin and his guest, Todd Garner, the head of Broken Road Productions and a veteran producer and Hollywood creative executive with a remarkable gift for creating and nurturing mainstream, commercial motion pictures. Listen in on this candid discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

I remember standing in the lobby waiting for the results of the test screening, and some audience members came up to us and thanked me for making this movie. I had forgotten that as close as Paul was to me, and to the cast and crew, and how much we cared about him, I forgot how he meant the same to the audience. And they needed the closure as much as we did. It was truly one of the most fulfilling things I’ve ever done in my life, where people were like, thank you for doing this for me.

Kevin and Neal discuss the moviegoing experience in the face of the rise of streaming companies like Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu. Neal talks about the value of seeing a movie in the theater and how he decides which of his projects should be released theatrically versus streaming. The conversation turns to the economics of moviemaking and the value of having a proven producer attached to a film project.

Join Kevin and his guest, Neal Moritz, one of the most successful producers of all time. Listen in on their wide-ranging discussion of audience research and how it has helped Neal shape his movies into audience-pleasing blockbusters. Learn about the economics of moviemaking in the rise of streaming as Neal lets the listener in on some of his moviemaking secrets. Listen in on this fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

Roxanne and Deon discuss the vision of Hidden Empire Film Group and their goal of making movies for everyone. They talk about the importance of allies and how striving to work with everyone allows them to create more opportunities for underrepresented people in Hollywood, and makes good business sense.

But we’re doing it. And that’s why I’m saying look at this. And look, it would be very easy for us to be like, man, we just go make our own movies and we’re going to be black and we’re going to make sure everything is black. And no, our job is to create allies. Get in the sandbox with everybody else. Work with everyone else to create more opportunity. And then inside those great opportunities bring up more people. Because I can’t make a movie with just…oh, it’s got to be just everybody.

– Deon Taylor

Kevin asks Roxanne to offer a piece of sage advice to a young person who wants to get their start in film. Roxanne discusses the benefits of education and film school, but also how education differs from the real-life experience on a movie set.

…this business is very unique, and you have to have thick skin and you have to constantly motivate yourself, you know? And so if you go to school and learn these fundamentals, it does not prepare you for being on set. It’s a totally different beast. And so it could either make you or it could break you.

– Roxanne Taylor

Join Kevin and his guests, the visionary producer and director team of Roxanne and Deon Taylor, and listen in on this wide-ranging discussion of race and representation in Hollywood. Learn how the pair created a film company with the goal of creating opportunities and bringing people up while appealing to diverse audiences across multiple genres. Listen in on this fascinating discussion, and enjoy some insider stories on Kevin’s podcast, Don’t Kill the Messenger!

Don’t Kill the Messenger, hosted by movie and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz, brings his book Audienceology to life. This bi-monthly podcast takes a peek behind the filmmaking curtain as Kevin talks with famous filmmakers, studio executives, stars, and other creatives about movies, filmmaking, audience test screenings, and much more.

The ending is the biggest thing that as you know, the biggest thing to make a movie test better is changing the ending that has the biggest impact. And if you have a great ending and the rest of the movie is just okay, it’s much better off than the rest of the movie being great and the ending not being so good. If you have a great ending, it really it helps an enormous amount. We had that with Get Out. We changed the ending of Get Out.

– Jason Blum

The global pandemic saw the rise of streaming services, and Kevin talks about the changes in audience research due to this rise. What follows is a fascinating discussion of what types of movies do well theatrically vs. streaming, and what makes a film “theatrical.”

But why do I think The Black Phone is theatrical? I will tell you; I think it’s theatrical because it has an elevated sense of fun and that to me is the single biggest barometer of a theatrical experience.

– Kevin Goetz

Anyone who’s a Blumhouse fan, who’s interested in movies should definitely get Kevin’s book (Audienceology) and read Kevin’s book because it’s like looking under the hood of how movies really get made and what really happens behind the scenes. It’s a terrific book.

– Jason Blum